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  • This topic has 11 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 3 months ago by Miriam.
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      Dave
      Participant

      Hi,

      I read the info in the jounal Nature – Human behavior – and thought I would pass on. https://rdcu.be/87fz Seems like they are looking for infomration from WTM??

      Here is a quote: ““Even in difficult situations, the desire for cooperation would appear to often be nascent and the evidence suggests that we are naturals at it, given the opportunity.”

      Dave

    • Reply

      Liam
      Participant

      Yes the riddle of human cooperation is driving scientists mad. Editorials, whole issues of science magazines are devoted to it. How can we be cooperative when genetics is a selfish system? The answer is right here in Jeremy’s book, which is that we are instinctively selfless, but that we suffer from a psychosis that causes us to be selfish. But because scientists can’t access that obvious truth, they keep assuming we have selfish instincts, and that any form of cooperation must be a subtle form of selfishness, which is the premise that the theories in this Nature editorial are based on. Love indoctrination is the key to how we got our loving instincts but that is something they cant access either. So yes, they are certainly looking for this information Dave! But the dam will break soon enough, and science will be absolutely transformed.

    • Reply

      Dave
      Participant

      Thanks for the reply. Its exciting for me to see this stuff. I want it to happen!

    • Reply

      Susy
      Participant

      I love the heading of this thread! Have just been re-reading Freedom essay 4 on “The ‘instinct vs intellect’ is the obvious and real explanation of our condition, as all these great thinkers evidence” and it’s so relevant to this thread. There is such an amazing collection of quotes from those ‘great thinkers’ on our cooperative heritage as part of that presentation. This one particularly hit home so thought I’d share it:

      “I’m reminded of the great Russian novelist Fyodor Dostoevsky’s 1877 intuitive remembrance of our species’ bonobo-like time in innocence—a time when, as he wrote: ‘The grass glowed with bright and fragrant flowers. Birds were flying in flocks in the air, and perched fearlessly on my shoulders and arms and joyfully struck me with their darling, fluttering wings. And at last I saw and knew the people of this happy land. They came to me of themselves, surrounded me, kissed me. The children of the sun, the children of their sun—oh, how beautiful they were!…​Their faces were radiant…​in their words and voices there was a note of childlike joy…​It was the earth untarnished by the Fall; on it lived people who had not sinned…​They desired nothing and were at peace; they did not aspire to knowledge of life as we aspire to understand it, because their lives were full. But their knowledge was higher and deeper than ours…​but I could not understand their knowledge. They showed me their trees, and I could not understand the intense love with which they looked at them; it was as though they were talking with creatures like themselves…​and I am convinced that the trees understood them. They looked at all nature like that—at the animals who lived in peace with them and did not attack them, but loved them, conquered by their love…​There was no quarrelling, no jealousy among them…​for they all made up one family.’ This description of being ‘conquered by their love’ is so like the description given by the bonobo researcher Vanessa Woods, when earlier it was mentioned that she said the bonobos ‘love you with such helpless abandon that you love them back. You have to love them back’. Again we see how accurate our memory is, if we don’t deny it, of what life was like ‘before the fall’.”

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      Tommy
      Participant

      Was recently helping a friend understand how we became altruistic, and re-read Jeremy’s essay 21 and also the brief FAQ and thought I’d put it on the Forum too for others, because they are so brilliant and helpful. What an amazing past we have!
      https://www.humancondition.com/wtm-faq-how-did-we-acquire-our-moral-soul/
      https://www.humancondition.com/freedom-essays/how-did-we-humans-acquire-our-altruistic-moral-conscience/

    • Reply

      Kim
      Participant

      And on top of those ones Tommy, there’s this essay on the amazing fossil discoveries of our primate ancestors that actually evidence how loving our past is! It’s such a fab read. Can’t believe I can make sense of all this now! I can actually answer the question of where does human cooperation come from! I’ll put the link in too https://www.humancondition.com/freedom-essays/fossil-discoveries/

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      MartyR
      Participant

      I’ve just found this article on modern day cooperation and kindness. Worth a read to put a smile on your face:

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/26/upside-kindest-thing-i-ever-saw

    • Reply

      Conrad
      Participant

      One of the best things about this explanation of the human condition is that we can actually understand where the cooperative side of ourselves comes from. And it’s such an incredible story. To understand that we had a completely cooperative, loving, selfless past, the instinctive memory within us that Jeremy explains is our soul, is an amazing thing to think about. There’s a really good section in FREEDOM, Chapter 5:2 ‘How could humans have acquired their altruistic moral instincts?’ where Jeremy describes that time in our species past that basically all of science has denied but one that unlocks an avalanche of explanation of our species history.

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      Nicoletta
      Guest

      Hi Conrad,

      What you said is perfect!
      For me, the biggest importance of truthfully understanding that we are fundamentally, cooperative and loving beings who are good and not bad in the whole story of life on earth and the way we humans, and myself have behaved in anger, egocentricity and frustration to the world to then be self preoccupied and selfish to reinforce my own needs and self wants, is all defended now and isn’t that just awesome.

      To be able to love “the unloveable” our “dark side” is so important.
      But my point, being that knowing we all have that instinctive orientation to behave selflessly – loving, cooperatively – then the need to be dogmatic and impose good behaviour on humans is completely futile. It is so wrong for people to impose ideals of behaving ‘correctly’ and disciplining kids and people to behave ideally, because that’s living a false existence.

      Following on, because the whole world is subscribed to the savage animal instincts excuse, everyone thinks we need to control these brutal and savage instincts, but what we DON’T need to do is control them because they don’t exist.

      That’s where Jeremy’s understandings of the human condition, especially in Chapter 5 as you pointed out, is so important because it provides the truthful, fully accountable and relieving insights to our true behaviour and true instinctive orientations on how to behave.

      And he also speaks about Bonobos being both our genetically and psychologically closest living ancestors. Bonobos have been described as so loving and warm and very different to the competitive and brutal acts from chimpanzees and other primal ancestors. Bonobos are a perfect example of the loving and selfless instincts that we humans have, therefore evidence of our selfless and loving cooperative instincts and not barbaric, competitive ones.

      Meaning we can just live out our true selves now, and through this understanding and by loving our selfish and angry, egocentric behaviours, then we can reconcile our split selves with our soul, inevitably becoming a bit more whole and drawing up our abilities to truthfully act selflessly and loving towards others!

      A future of real happiness and cooperativeness awaits the future generations and our job to bring about a new world is to support the WTM and these very important understandings of our Human Condition!

    • Reply

      Conrad
      Participant

      Thanks for the great post Nicoletta!!!! There is soooo much great stuff to talk about now isn’t there?!? I really love that “sympathy for the devil” stuff too, it was such a significant turning point for me in my journey with this information. Because, as you said, prior to having any understanding of the dark side of ourselves, we simply pretended it didn’t exist – which is kind of like walking around with a clinical disease pretending you’re not sick! And yeah, as you say, it’s all the pretending and dishonesty about that whole situation that really stuffed things up for children and made the whole mess so much more confusing. But yeah how special is it to know and understand that our species actually had a cooperative, loving ,selfless instinctive past – how goddamn special is that!! I mean if I think about that for a second…that means that our natural, instinctive way of behaving is to be be cooperative and selfless and loving towards each other – that’s just amazing to think about! And what’s even more amazing is that we can now also love the dark side of ourselves – and all the dishonesty and pretence can stop. It was such a revelation for me when I actually “allowed” this explanation of the human condition to defend my horribly egocentric, alienated, resigned competitive state, because I felt for the first time in my life that all my imperfections didn’t add up to me being a fundamentally worthless, unloveable person – quite the opposite – I was able to feel that all my imperfections were a “badge of honour” for my life lived without any understanding, that, (thanks to Jeremy’s explanation of the Adam Stork story and the whole human journey that flowed from that) I was in fact deeply loveable and deserving of forgiveness and compassion. And it was that simple thought-train that was like a brain chiropractor had got into my head and straightened me out!! It was my whole attitude to MYSELF that changed – and that’s an unbelievably amazing thing to happen. And it can happen to absolutely everybody!!! Man ‘o man it’s gonna be the best fun ever living our lives to share/help/discuss/develop these understandings with as many people as possible!! Exactly as you said above: ‘A future of real happiness and cooperativeness awaits the future generations and our job to bring about a new world is to support the WTM and these very important understandings of our Human Condition!’ Thanks again for your reply Nicoletta, it was great to read. LET’S GO !!!!!

    • Reply

      Nicoletta
      Guest

      Conrad, I think you have a great connection to the truth and realisation to the importance of this information.
      I can feel your excitement and relief from understanding the human condition and it’s really infectious.

      Everyone is really sick, and when we can acknowledge that, and see that every human (including myself) without this information is leading a path to nothing – no meaning or true happiness – stuck in the battle to prove our worth, the desire to help everyone (beginning ditching me) get out of the cave of darkness and sickness and ultimately pain and suffering from the human condition, just grows and grows. Once you can see the pain and suffering under the duress of the human condition, freeing yourself and everyone else is THE only step forward to true cooperation, love and peace!

      You got it exactly right when you said that realising you’re corrupted self (ie being egocentric, angry and selfish etc) brought so much relief is exactly how I feel too. Because no longer do we need to be fearful of admitting all these truths because we can understand why we had to behave that way. And then ultimately be proud of our “dark side” and wear it like a “badge of honour”. That brought a big smile to my face because everyone will get relief from being able to admit that to themselves and others around them inevitably feeling more free and secure!

      We can all now feel loveable and fundamentally worthwhile through the power of this information. How simple of an answer is it, to just understand the clash between our instincts and intellect which resulted in all of our behaviour today.

      As you put it perfectly, it was your attitude to yourself that changed, YOU began to reconcile your soul and intellect, begin to love the seemingly ‘unloveable’ parts of you.

      Transformation leads to genuine cooperation and love. And the first step to transformation is realising it begins with me, it begins with you! Based on my experience, I always blamed my flaws and the stuff I didn’t like within myself on others. I projected my corrupted reality within other people. And when I started to acknowledge what I didn’t like within myself, and learnt to love that part of me, then I could begin to live securely through the information and no longer need to live that anger and egocentricity to the same extent. And it’s a journey, so we need to be patient and relaxed, but I know for myself, the more I stick by the information, the more it does magic for me and my soul and the truth just leads me to where I’m meant to go :)

    • Reply

      Miriam
      Guest

      Enjoyed the discussion, guidance, inspiration and quotations here thank you. I have recently come across the WTM’s ‘Frequently Asked Questions’ and am finding them very helpful too. I read this earlier on ‘What is soul’ and thought it might be my contribution to this marvelous Forum topic. Thank you Jeremy Griffith, never thought I would understand so much so deeply!
      https://www.humancondition.com/wtm-faq-what-is-soul/

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