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This topic contains 15 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  RJ 1 week, 4 days ago.

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  • juzzie
    Participant

    Okay so do I have this right? Our direct ancestors achieved a totally integrated society through selfless love, which then allowed our ancestors 2 million years ago, to move from our instinct driven operating system to our current conscious mind operating system. This happened because of the law of integration where all matter strives to achieve an “order” and is moving towards becoming one. Is that Integrated Meaning?


  • Roger
    Participant

    Hi Juzzie,
    Yeah that sounds right to me. I find it amazing that, the truth about / the simplicity of, the human journey can be summarised in 2 sentences.


    • juzzie
      Participant

      thanks Roger for replying, i am still reading the book, my brain is actually hurting ! :)


  • Conrad
    Participant

    g’day Juzzie, i just read your post and yeah that’s it. throughout the whole universe from the beginning of time (whenever that was!?!) there has been this underlying force or tendency towards greater and greater order or development of matter. And surprise, surprise, WE are still a part of that force!

    In fact, it is this same underlying force that led our ape ancestors to “finding/developing” a way to ‘defy the essential selfish nature of the natural selection process and develop unconditionally selfless moral instincts.’ (paragraph 388 of FREEDOM), which in turn liberated consciousness via the love-indoctrination process and then the human condition emerged etc etc.

    I’d recommend reading about the love-indoctrination process, chapter 5:4 of FREEDOM (you may have already), because it’s the key information that explains how we “flipped” from being controlled by instincts only i.e. one learning system, to suddenly having two learning systems jostling for management of our lives i.e. our instincts AND our intellect/conscious mind.

    just found another good summary in paragraph 316 along the same lines: “The law of physics that accounts for this integration of matter is known as the ‘Second Path of the Second Law of Thermodynamics’, or ‘Negative Entropy’, which states that in an open system, where energy can come into the system from outside it (in Earth’s case, from the sun, and, in the case of the universe, from the original ‘big bang’ explosion that created it), matter integrates; it develops order. Thus, subject to the influence of Negative Entropy, the 94 elements from which our world is built develop ever larger and more stable wholes.”

    sorry for the long response Juzzie – it’s just a very very very interesting topic to be discussing!!!


  • juzzie
    Participant

    Hey Conrad, thanks so much I was having a bit of trouble trying to get Negative Entrophy. Love Indoctrination was quite logical because Everything gets better, bigger and more integrated with love/nurturing. You water and feed a plant, it grows. You make nurturing (love) your main goal (e.g. the Bonobos) and you become more “together”. So I can see how love-indoctrination feeds progress. Its funny I was sitting on the toilet (excuse me) this morning and just looking through my basket of soaps and picked up a bar of Dr Bronner’s Pure-Castille Soap, and look what was written on the back of the packet.

    “Dr Bronners was founded in 1948 by Emanuel Bronner, a third generation master soap maker from a German-Jewish soap making family. He used the labels on his superb ecological soaps to spread his message that we must realise our transcendent unity across religious and ethnic divides, or perish: “We are ALL-One or None!” Dr. Bronners is committed to making socially and environmentally responsible products etc etc”.


  • Conrad
    Participant

    Hi juzzie, sorry for the slow reply! yeah negative entropy is the term that physicists gave to this whole development process towards greater and greater order. It’s amazing when you think that the concept or “discovery” of negative entropy occurred in 1944 by a guy called Schrodinger – that’s not very long ago! But this whole concept of integrative meaning is something that we upset humans have necessarily lived in denial/mortal fear of (including mechanistic science), because how could we confront the fact that the whole meaning of life on earth and in the universe is to integrate/cooperate, when we are living in complete contrast to that i.e. we are living divisively and competitively!!

    Sounds like your soap guy, Bronner, was dreaming for a world that is united and cooperative too! That’s the thing about the human condition: we all know deep down that we really shouldn’t be behaving the way we do, we know that things are slowly getting worse, not better – but how do we stop this runaway train? Up until now we haven’t been able to explain our mad human behaviour, which is why we’ve lived in deep denial of it. In fact, one of Jeremy’s earlier books is actually called “A SPECIES IN DENIAL”. What’s so remarkable is that now that the riddle of the human condition has been explained (i.e. how could we be good when all the evidence is that we are bad) -it’s a game changer because we now CAN change our “nature” based on understanding. In other words, what ‘ol Bronner was yearning for can now actually happen!


  • Roz
    Participant

    Hi guys, have just seen that these are quite old posts, well relatively anyway but just had to say Conrads explanation of it Negative Entropy and Integrated Meaning being one of the same is brilliant, love the nutshell thing of it. I had never heard of the second law of thermodynamics in fact had to look it up to see what it meant! But for me it just summed it all up and made perfect sense.why they dont teach is in schools, I dont know. The fact that we are all ONE or none is another wonderful term for it, the sooner humans get that the better there is a better world, Jeremys information is the key to it, its just sooooo straight forward, its as hard as you make it! Anyway just wanted to say thanks for a brilliant discussion. Xx

  • Zzantor
    Zzantor
    Participant

    Hi Roz, apparently I’m following you around the forum today, ha!
    I wanted to add to what’s already been said about Integrated Meaning. From an observers point of view, there is a pattern that repeats through-out nature. There is a center and things revolve around that center. The most obvious is our model of the Adam and it’s orbiting electrons, how it’s like our solar system, our galaxy(s), the moon around the earth, the seasons, the life/death cycle, whirlpools, tornadoes, hurricanes, and toilet flushes…. The sun is the center of life for earth, Jesus(as Sol) is the sun of God(Integrated Meaning), symbolizing the Star within each man, around which, orbit our emotions, memories, thought’s, our body, our possessions and people in our lives. This pattern, I’ve heard called the Will of God. Anything (being)created, has the creator’s signature all over it…
    Perhaps I went too far in saying what I believe this grand pattern means, but, it’s just my opinion after all, not the truth.:)


  • Roz
    Participant

    Hi Zzantor,

    Am right behind you! Again great post , I love the way you put it all in a nutshell, brilliant xx


  • Gien
    Participant

    Hi everyone,

    I wrote a post on the “death” thread that may be relevant to the discussion here:

    why are we so fearful of death


    Search for my post dated: March 17, 2018 at 7:47 pm


  • PaddyCrean
    Participant

    Given that thermodynamics dictates that all matter strives to achieve order, what scientific proof is there for the existence of a parallel psychic law governing the human spirit and human society?


  • PaulM
    Participant

    Im not aware that Griffith ever says there is a parallel psychic law corresponding to the 2nd path of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. What he says is that humans have an instinctive orientation toward cooperation and love, gained through what he describes as the ‘love-indoctrination’ process – see Freedom Essay 21. However he also says that the integrative tendency in the universe has been unbearably confronting for humans while we couldn’t explain the DISintegrative tendencies that we adopted under the duress of the human condition – see Freedom Essay 23. But Griffith argues (and this ‘but’ is a showstopper), now that the explanation of the human condition has obsoleted the need for those disintegrative tendencies, humanity can embrace the integrative tendency. Which makes sense to me…


  • Roz
    Participant

    Makes complete sense to me too Paul, why would anyone want to behave in a way that didnt serve the community, humanity or even yourself, especially when we now have the answer as to why you should, it would be pointless wouldnt it, not to! You can make it complicated but Jeremy Griffith puts it such a way that it all makes perfect, complete and utter sense.


  • GoldenRuler
    Participant

    Love this thread! Just wanted to add something that I have discovered that helps me understand integrative meaning. i.e. negative entropy +++. Its the Fibonacci Sequence! A wonderful and ridiculously simple mathematical formula that seems to describe natures expansive and integrative underlying structure, and also, ours too! Is Fibonacci on anyone else radar, especially as a wonderful illustration of the integrative meaning of life… everything?


  • lizzy
    Participant

    Yes thanks to all, this thread is exactly what I was looking for as am just reading about integrative meaning in freedom and also found it covered in one of the essays. I really love being able to understand why we haven’t been able to confront or admit it, I mean how could we when we have been so selfish and the meaning of life is to be selfless! That makes so much sense to me and its such an important topic. Will read on….


  • RJ
    Participant

    I’m re-reading the Essay no. 25 on the Truthful Biology and really find the integration of matter, or the development of order as told in this unevasive framework just so fascinating and meaningful. This description of the Volvox has always just amazed me, to know of an organism that is in transition from the single-celled to the multicellular state is pretty extraordinary! An extract if you’re as interested as me!:

    “In the case of the integration of single-celled organisms, the green alga known as Volvox provides an example of an organism in transition from the single-celled to the multicellular state, as this quote describes: ‘Volvox is…​a small, green sphere…​composed of thousands of flagellates embedded in the surface of a jelly ball…​Volvox is a colony of unicellular animals rather than a many-celled animal, because even the simplest many-celled animals have considerably more differentiation between cells than appears among the cells of Volvox. The colony swims about, rolling over and over from the action of the flagella; but, remarkably enough, the same end of the sphere is always directed forward…​Its behaviour can be explained only by supposing that the activities of the numerous flagellates are subordinated to the activity of the colony as a whole. If the flagella of each member of the colony were to beat without reference to the other members, the sphere would never get anywhere. In such subordination of the individual cells of a colony to the good of the colony as a whole we see the beginnings of individuality as it exists in the higher animals, where each animal behaves as a single individual, although composed of millions of cells…​The co-ordination of numerous components into an individual is usually followed by the specialisation of different individuals for different duties. Only the slightest degree of specialisation is seen in the Volvox colony; the flagellates of the back part of the colony are capable of reproduction, while the front members never reproduce but have larger eyespots and serve primarily in directing the course of the colony.’”