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    • Dave

      Jeremy has explained the difference between men and women and given us context, but how do you manage this on a day to day basis? Do you interact differently with your spouse? My wife and I are more loving and better friends (we always had a lot in common) and I am trying to a better listener. I see marriage and the very close friendship it can bring as the most important part of my life now (I wish I had known about the HC 31 years ago). I also try to approach decisions differently, and instead of leaving things open ended I make a suggestion and ask what she thinks (as matriarch). She is more likely to consider others feelings and her own feelings in decisions. Could use any advice people can offer. Thanks

    • Michael

      Although Jeremy has given a thorough and completely new intellectual angle upon the whole of humanity, and certainly a new angle on the real relationship between mothers and sons, in that mothers actually are being as selfish and egoistic as any man ever was when they look after their own offspring, and that this female selfishness is also what is being misinterpreted by their sons as “love” or unselfishness towards it’s own kind also known as “loveindoctrination”, he doesn’t go into any kind of detailed explanation about the modern scientific focuspoint between the sexes which is intersexuality and the scientifically recognized hormonal grounds underlying homosexuality… this third scientifically understood and explained middleground between these ageold blackandwhite extremepoints that man and woman represents are on the other hand well covered by other theoretic/practical reasonings, such as those by Anne Moir and David Jessel in their book “Brain Sex”, talked about here;

      Brain Sex: The Real Difference Between Men & Women

      So, any modern scientific discussion about the relationship between men and women is nowadays bound to involve also intersexuality and homosexuality, and based on this triplebase view of the relationship between the sexes, I can’t say that JG’s explanation has led me to any different interactions with the opposite sex… it has led me to a different view of myself and my family of origin, for sure, but since I´m not yet married perhaps the lack of a steady companion makes any changes in my behaviour visavis the opposite sex too subtle for selfdetection…

    • Willow

      Hi Dave, what a great question. Like you, my husband and I have always been close, but I know we have has just continued to deepen and grow together as we’ve understood the explanation for the human condition – especially being able to understand the differences between men and women as a result of the human condition. This has changed how we treat each other – we have so much more respect and appreciation for who we each are and we can talk so much more openly and honestly about things so that when challenges arise we can deal with them so much more effectively and with compassion for where we’re each coming from. I think the biggest thing for me is that in being able to understand why, until now, men have had no choice but to oppress women, I’ve done a complete backflip, changing from an understandably feminist view that men are the villains on the planet to the opposite, that they are the ultimate heroes on the planet for what they have had to do – without any way to explain why they were doing it – of going into the battle against ignorance to search for the knowledge we so desperately needed so that every human can now understand the human condition and with that all the pain and suffering humans have had to endure can finally end. It blows my mind to understand this and with that I have an incredible new-found respect for men and that translates into my relationship with my husband. It really has been such a revelation to finally be able to understand the reason for the gulf that exists between men and women – I particularly love what Jeremy Griffith writes in Ch 8:11B in Freedom, titled ‘Men and women’s relationship after the emergence of the human condition’. I know you’ve talked about the issue of men and women being contexted but it reminded my of how much paragraphs 771 and 772 in this chapter sum up for me the situation and thought I’d include here: 771 – “So, in keeping with their already established roles as the group protectors, it was men who took up the loathsomely upsetting job of championing the ego over the ignorance of our original instinctive self, leaving women to their loving, nurturing role. The problem this role differentiation gave rise to, however was that in not being responsible for or participating in the terrible battle to overthrow ignorance women were naive or unaware of the ramifications of fighting the battle, and, as a result, were unsympathetic towards both the battle and the frustrated anger and egocentricity it produced in men—a situation that placed men in the awful predicament of being misunderstood and unjustly condemned by women. Women, not responsible for the fight against ignorance, and so not partaking in the battle itself, did not and could not be expected to understand what happened in the battle or the effect it had on men; they could understand the search for knowledge, but not what the battle involved…” and 772 – “Life has certainly been ‘very difficult’ for men; they have had the absolutely horrible job of having to be strong enough to, in effect, kill soul—to search for knowledge and determinedly defy our beautiful, cooperatively orientated, original instinctive self. And since that defiance resulted in becoming angry, egocentric and alienated, which are all divisive, un-Godly traits, men were, in effect, in violation of God, the integrative ideals of life! So from an initial state of upset, men had then “to contend with a sense of guilt, which very greatly compounded their insecurity and frustrations and made them even more angry, egocentric and alienated. (As explained in chapter 3:5, this avalanche of criticism is the ‘double and triple whammy’ of condemnation that humans experienced when we searched for knowledge.) How tough were men going to have to be to continue to do their job without receiving any respect or appreciation for why they were having to do what they were having to do! No wonder they have become so incredibly upset.” And I just have to include the closing words of this chapter: “With understanding of the human condition now found, men and women can at last stand side by side—the ‘war of the sexes’ can finally be resolved. Yes, the human journey can have the happy ending we always hoped it would.” It’s just incredibly exciting to know that we can now live a life effectively free of the ravages of the human condition and that in doing so it ends all the immense upset humans experience every day, including within ourselves and with our partners, we can actually live in peace and treat each with the love we deserve and expect.

    • Liam

      Hi Dave. Another good topic and connects with some of the others on WTM site that have prompted me to participate in. In terms of your two basic questions of: how to manage your relationship; and how do interact differently with your spouse (in the context of the differences between men and women as explained by Jeremy Griffith) it sounds to me like you are on the right track. Its clear in what you say that you are on a journey of being mindful and self-observing of your relationship and no doubt observing ‘old’ default behaviours emerge, at the time or shortly thereafter, and then querying if those behaviours are relevant and positive in light of the ‘new’ framework of explanation. It is also clear that flowing from that awareness you are making different choices that are resulting in closeness and no doubt greater peace for you as compared to polarisation, retreat, retribution, silence and the myriad of other dysfunctions we human are capable off in relationships, all of which leave us jaded and estranged from the one’s we care for and love. Also as you touch on, as men, with explanation of the human condition found, we can be genuinely honest about our very real limitations as a product of the duress of the human condition, and similarly we can acknowledge the very real positive traits women possess to build a real pact. So I don’t have any advice as such rather just an observation from my own experience of the meaning that flows from putting myself in the path of the WTM information.

      Hi Michael. I would need to do some more thinking and reading to fairly comment in any detail on the points you make. That said, I think it is important, and helpful for you to say that, in my view there is a critical context to your outline of the love indoctrination process that is missing. To somewhat crudely summarise what I understand Jeremy to be saying: to personify ‘life’ on earth, it has been committed to finding ways to develop greater integration (order); genetics was a ‘tool’ (albeit with various limitations) that life threw up for unlocking a massive step forward in the level or order achievable; love indoctrination was another such ‘tool’ that unlocked the integration of an animal species, namely our ape ancestors. The take home message is that life on earth is committed to achieving as much integration as it can – that is its burning desire if you like. Importantly, the intention of the process is not defined by what might superficially appear to be the intention when taking a narrow view of a particular constraint in the process. Also you appear to be drawing a connection between behaviour that is a nuance of the love indoctrination process (that being the apparent selfishness of maternalism having the appearance of selflessness in the offsprings eyes), and the behaviour of selfishness and egocentricity that we humans presently exhibit as a result of the human condition. To be fair there is no basis for this comparison, let alone connection, founded in Jeremy’s work. Respectfully, if you are conflating these behaviours it will not be helpful to understanding where the WTM is coming from. I will leave it there and dialogue further in due course.

    • Michael

      Hi Liam… you provide a thoughtprovoking comment, which I find stimulating… if you would read the book “Brain Sex” we perhaps would have a more equal standing to begin with, but in the absens of this common ground we of course will have to do with what we’ve got… so, your response I hope will be helpful for my own conscious thoughtprocess regarding the relationship between men and women…and to begin with, I think that in scientific reasonings like the WTM and JG’s thinking IMO is an excellent example of, and that this messageboard should strive to be a reflection of, there should be no place for any personifications of anything except real persons…so, a large part of your logic falls short of this benchmark since you personify “life”, which not even JG does… so it is not “life” that develops greater integration, but “matter”…
      quote”There are two main mechanisms or tools for the refinement and development of the integration of matter ” unquote.
      …life is but a result of this integration of matter, and the integration of matter takes place also inside stars as gravitational integration of atoms up to the point of Iron, with all the heavier atoms being formed by reactionexplosions called supernovae… so, the “takehomemessage” is IMO that it is the inanimate matter of the universe that is bound by natural laws to integrate itself in any way possible, regardless of any human feelings like “burning desire” or whathaveyou… this process goes on in all directions all the time without any “intention”, and it is the job of the thinking human to master this development by way of reasoning, or else succumb to it by ignoring it…
      So, the selfish maternalism that you call a “nuance” of the loveindoctrinationprocess, I would rather call a fundamental pillar of the whole WTM, since it clearly puts women on an equal footing to men (or vice versa) when it comes to selfish motivation, with the men’s motive being persuit of knowledge…about everything worth knowing…such as for instance the hormonal underpinnings of homo- and intersexuality, which IMO brings a scientific understanding of otherwise incomprehensible matters which by religious and/or prejudicial standards unfortunately often lead to persecutions and deathpenalties… so, as concluding remark with the hope of further conversation, I would like to say that I believe that it is not “we humans” that exhibits selfishness and egocentricity as a result of the human condition, but “we men” that do it as the result of the human condition, while women are being selfish as a result of the natural integration of order of matter in the universe… big difference…while women are naturally selfish when it comes to their children, men are being selfish as a result of ignorance of e.g. the loveindoctrinationprocess, i.e. they/we suffer from the human psychological condition of not knowing… something…:)

    • Roz

      Hi, kinda new to all this so bear with….

      So, the story so far …

      I am a british ex pat living in southern Spain and married to a german guy. We have been married for just over three years. I am a ‘ship at sea’ he a quadrapledgic having broken his neck 35 yrs ago jumping into a swimming pool.

      Hopefully you guys will get used to me, I wear my heart on my sleeve and say how it is, albeit privately amongst friends, btw this forum is the only one where I have felt at home, which is why I can be candid! Thank you SO much

      Anyway, we met and married within two years, I because I needed someone who could show be how to be ‘resigned’. I just didnt get it, could see why people could be so horrid! And he is very resigned.

      So now I have found ‘Freedom’ and Jeremys wonderful truths and I get why he is like he is!

      Its transformed my marriage!

      He still doesnt want to look at any ‘Jeremy’ stuff or look at videos but me reading Jeremys texts and knowing everything has made such me difference to me
      I am hoping that he sees wht a difference it has made to me and start to enquire himself!

      We have a much nicer time of it, you know, he feels like the hero, I feel looked after!

      Would love to hear from anyone that has or had a partner that wasnt on the Jeremy line of things, and their story

      Love Roz ???????

    • TonyM

      Dear Roz,

      Firstly I am really enjoying reading your forum posts, the relief at finding some truth in the world is pouring out of you!

      I also have a partner who is not enthusiastic about the information but has seen some value in it. She is a teacher and found the explanation of resignation very helpful in understanding her teenage students. She says to me regularly that the bits and pieces she’s read make sense but she thinks that solving the Human Condition in an insurmountable problem. The real reason however is that the whole issue of the Human Condition has historically been off limits once a person resigns.

      Roz, the biggest problem “Ship at Sea’s” face is not appreciating the extent of the deaf effect in resigned humans and the confronting nature of the information which is why your husband “still doesn’t want to look at any ‘Jeremy’ stuff or look at videos”. When someone resigns it is a 100% complete commitment to never again look at the issue of the Human Condition in themselves or the world because it is just absolutely terrifying. Where as a “Ship at sea” feels a huge relief because at last they’ve understood what has been driving them mad all of their life, you feel understood and know that you have found a home in this truth where the torment can subside. I still clearly remember the day I read the Adam Stork story for the first time and saying to myself “This is it” because I knew I was searching for something I just wasn’t quite sure what it was and the feeling of relief was completely over whelming. All I wanted to do was tell everyone but aside from one or two people I was generally received with a blank look and stunned silence. That was 20 years ago but now we are slowly making in roads and working day and night to break down the walls of the resigned world.
      Anyway the reason for telling you all this is that it’s important to be patient with people. It’s the job of people who can hear this truth to demonstrate to others that it is at last now safe to look at the issue of the Human Condition and the only reason that’s possible is because we can understand it. And the best way to demonstrate that is to relax in it and be a living example which it sounds like you’re doing perfectly judging by this “but me reading Jeremys texts and knowing everything has made such me difference to me I am hoping that he sees what a difference it has made to me and start to enquire himself!”
      I relate very much to your line of “I get why he is like he is” because once you understand what’s going on it’s so much easier to cope with it rather than get frustrated by it. Not only can you cope but you can be truly empathetic to someone else’s situation. Once they know that you’re “on their side” it allows the relationship to gain traction at a deeper level which hopefully can grow. I love that you say that the information has “transformed my marriage!” because It’s fair to say that without this information it would have been almost impossible for me to have a relationship at all.

      All the best


    • Roz

      Hi Tony,

      Thank you for your reply. You are completely spot on when you said about the relief flooding out of me! Am reading lots at the moment and watching the brilliant videos on the website, and have several OMG moments every day!

      Its getting better, the frustration with people thing, once you know why it helps so much, especially when previously I used to think this has to be me making him, them, she,he behave like that, as if I had done something wrong, in fact I dont take critism at all well… i wonder why? Now i know why that little chesnut has desolved too! ? Happy days as they say

      Now I know why ‘patience is a virtue’ and why its so important, especially the leading by example thing, that certainly something that I can relate to and sits well with me, its great to have sn aim ne snd know why. Happy days again ?

      Must share this, with you, prior to finding the knowledge/truth/meaning (btw o you have a name for ‘It’) I always had this feeling that i would be needed when the time came, that its all been leading up to something, and thats my life was like it was, is this a common thing with ‘SAS’ folk? One of things I knew I would need was patience, not very good at it previously, marrying someone in a wheelchair has gone a long way in teaching me that, I knew it was needed, which was one of the many reasons we were married 3 years ago. Should I phone for the men in the white van to come and take me away? ???

      An english very common phrase, used by Terry Wogan an english radio host and chat show host was “Is it me?” One does wonder u til you know why.

      Thanks again, hope I havent bored you witless with all the inbetween chatter

      Roz ???

    • TonyM

      Definitely not bored at all by your posts Roz. Not sure about a name prior to finding the information other than it wasn’t much fun, I suppose confused, alone and lost would cover it. I did have a feeling from a young age that there was something important that I’d be a part of and I’d nearly given up when luckily I was introduced to this by a friend. When you don’t fit in the question “is it me” or rather the statement “it must be me” does go through your mind on a daily basis. Anyway thank god we can understand it all now and you never need think again of calling the “nice young men in their clean white coats” (I think we’re about the same age so assume you’ll get this)

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