Transcript of WTM member Jimmy talking to WTM founding members John and Tony in June 2012
Please note: The speakers sometimes refer to parts or sections in our books, but since the books are continually being added to, the parts or sections may change, so unless sources are provided to find the quotes you will need to search the actual words in the books, which can be done by accessing the electronic versions of our publications at .
Part 1 How do you see through your resigned strategy?
Jimmy: John, I thought your Affirmation video about the TRANSFORMED STATE was really good. Especially when you broke it down into two points where you, ‘sign off’ on the information, so you accept that the information is true, then the whole bottoming out on Resignation. I think this is something I’m sort of fighting a bit. I come up with these little arguments as to why maybe I’m not actually resigned, maybe I’m this one little special human being who avoided it. Even though I definitely am resigned and relate to all that resigned behaviour you talk about, a part of my brain is fighting against that acceptance. So if you could just maybe elaborate on how you bottomed out on Resignation, if there was any particular insights or whether it was a long process that just happened over time. [ explains the psychological process of Resignation.]
John: Sure, that’s a very good question. The thing about the information is that I came across it when I was relatively young, 20-odd or something, and like you I became fascinated with it, just because it was so accountable and managed to explain all these things around me—other people, politics, religion, men and women, and everything! So I loved it and for a long time, for a couple of years I was like a kid in a lolly shop you know. I just loved the accountability of it, loved that I could make sense of all these things that previously you would only be able to talk about at a distance. So the ability to do that was amazing and I used it all the time to look at different things and became more and more familiar with the information.
But at a certain point what happens is, you run into your resigned self. You don’t sort of realise it but once you resign—and pretty much everybody is resigned except for the few exceptional unresigned innocents that are floating around and they are as rare as hen’s teeth—you change at that point from having an idealistic, honest, open, unresigned framework, to a totally selfish, resigned framework where you have blocked out all the truth about everything and essentially you are going in a completely different direction. All you want really in that framework is just relief from your particular version of the human condition. You develop a strategy depending upon what talents and abilities you have to try and get as much reinforcement as you can and everybody develops these different sorts of strategies. Mine is the ‘power addict’, massively competitive, try-and- win everything, try-and-be-good-at-football-and-make-money-strategy—I’m one of those sort of people you know. But everybody has got their own sort of strategy, whether your trying to be the funniest guy in the room or the nice bloke or the one who is the smartest or the wittiest or the best runner. Everyone has got a slightly different strategy and at resignation when you’re looking down the barrel of how you’re going to cope for the rest of your life with this irreconcilable pain you’ve got inside you, you basically just try to cobble together something that best maximises where you’re at.
But even after you come across the information, like I did when I was 20, you don’t look at yourself very honestly for a long time. You just sit there and you’re just fascinated by the ability of the information to explain everything else and you sort of say, ‘Well I’m not so bad you know, sure I’m a bit competitive about things, but who isn’t? That’s all good healthy stuff.’ So you just live in a sort of bubble about the fact that it applies to you. The other thing is you don’t realise how locked on, how wedded you are to that resigned strategy. It becomes your lifeline at resignation when you’re this little 13, 14 year old kid trying to understand all the psychosis in the world and inside yourself and being overwhelmed by it, by the pain of it and not being sound enough to be able to put the pieces together.
So you’ve blocked out all that pain and difficulty and all the imperfections in your life and your incredibly committed to never going back to that dark corner of depression, looking at those things again. You’re incredibly wedded to your strategy, as all humans are, but you don’t realise how owned you are by that strategy and so you just keep living your life. You’ve got this information on one hand if you like, which is great and means you can explain and understand things that no one else can at the moment, so it’s fascinating but you never really apply it to yourself. It takes a long time, it took me a long time anyway, 15 years or something, to see just how pointless, destructive and pre-occupying my resigned strategy was and that is because I wasn’t sort of applying the information to myself. I was still living out my resigned strategy because I was still so owned by it. I’d basically just ‘pocket the win’ as we used to call it in the WTM, just take advantage of the fact that I could explain all these things but I was still going about my day-to-day existence, focussed on trying to get as much reinforcement as I could, day in, day out. That is pretty much how humans live, trying to you know, tell better stories than each other or crack jokes or get the best posture for the best position and all that sort of crap that people do minute in, minute out of every day.
So I was still owned by my whole resigned strategy if you like and there is no end in sight. If you look at the people around you and look at older people, you can see that resigned strategies, for the people living them, are just desperately unhappy dead-ends generally, because it’s just a self-centred existence. You’re not trying to do the right thing anymore. You’re not trying to, if you like, look after everybody. Your whole strategy is just dependant on trying to get reinforcement for yourself, some little bit of artificial reinforcement to hold against this misreading that you’re bad.
So even though at a macro level I could understand that the two poles of life had been reconciled and there was no need to carry on with a resigned strategy, which was a strategy that came out of a world with no understanding—I was carrying on with that strategy. Seeing the dichotomy as clearly as I do now is something that took me a fair while because I was just so committed to my strategy and I wanted to keep doing it and I was blind to it too. It took me a long time but I got to a point in my life where I was just disillusioned with it. I was about 35 and I said, ‘I can keep going on just being my resigned, competitive self’, but it was achieving nothing. It wasn’t making me happy because it’s built on a false premise anyway, the idea that if you get this artificial reinforcement somehow that means you’re good. I mean, the real reason that humans are good, including me, is because as Jeremy has explained, all our imperfections are as a result of the human condition, why we are the way we are, the whole riddle of life! The real answers to why we are good are all in his books and they actually explain me and defend me.
So I discovered that I don’t need to keep doing that anymore and at a certain point you just make a decision, if you like, to change strategies, to say, ‘Well my strategy is actually redundant, I don’t actually need to keep living through that strategy anymore.’ So I just changed strategies and my strategy now is just to try and support the information as best I can, every minute of every day. Because by getting the information out to a new generation who don’t have to resign—that will produce peace on earth once a certain number of people take it up and it gets going—that will actually solve all the world problems! ‘What can Jοhn Bіggs offer other than supporting the information?’ ‘Who gives a *#@! about my strategy because all my strategy is interested in is me!’
So at a certain point you can see that in a world where there wasn’t any reconciling explanation of the human condition we needed these resigned strategies, but now they are redundant. So you can actually in the blink of an eye, literally, make a decision to give it away and just support the information and you make that the framework for your life. That’s the essence of the Transformed State. You’ve got a different framework to live your life where you’re thinking about how to get the information out to the world, how to get it to the next generation, how to fix the problems on earth as opposed to being completely preoccupied, perpetuating this crazy little resigned strategy that you took up when you were 14 or 15 or some age that you can’t remember.
Part 2 Can you slip from the Transformed State?
Jimmy: Once you’ve hit that Transformed State can you slip back into the resigned strategies if you don’t pay enough attention, if you don’t keep reading, keep studying?
Tony: The old, resigned competitive way has become the natural way to live, that we’ve certainly programmed ourselves to and to some degree I think, developed instinctively because it’s been such a long time living under the human condition. So yeah, of course, you can still fall back and be egocentric and wave the sword around if you like and go back to your old ways, but at the same time once you see how it all works you will never, ever look back. The best sentence I can think of that describes how the Transformed State works is when Jeremy talks about how you have to see the opportunity, in . You can see on one hand that you’ve got this resigned life and just how much of a waste of time that is and how redundant it is now and on the other hand you’ve got firstly, just how relieving it is to be able to leave all that shit behind and then secondly, how good it is to be living in tandem with Integrative Meaning—just how meaningful living in support of this information is. Because two million years’ worth of human effort has led to this point where the information has finally been found and all the efforts of all the humans that have ever lived have got us to this moment. So now, what are we going to do with it? Finally we can understand that by supporting this, not only are we fulfilling the efforts of every person that has ever lived for the last two million years, finish what they’ve started but we’re also living completely aligned with the ideals, not against them, for the first time ever and that is just a massively exciting thing! [See for explanation of Integrative Meaning.]
So you’ve got these two sides in front of you and you can see the opportunity and honestly, when you say to yourself, ‘Look, I can see the logic, that is redundant, that is old. It’s not something I have to recriminate or feel bad about but I can just leave that behind now and start supporting this. There is a whole new landscape here based on understanding. My strategy has done its job, I don’t need to prove that I’m good anymore, I can just live over here.’ And at that moment when you let all that go, finally you will see how this is going to work because you can understand how instantly, like literally instantly the human condition is just going to be wiped off the face of the planet. You will feel it in yourself. You will realise that ‘My God, yesterday I was living out all of this mad, mad, crazy, don’t think, don’t think, don’t feel, don’t feel kind of behaviour and today it’s gone and that is just WAHHOOOO!!!!! You know, kids running down the street with their hands waving, ‘The human condition is solved!!!’ It’s just so exciting. That is the shift because you’ve come from this absolute burnt-out, endplay, dead place to this unbelievably exciting new landscape and it begins at that moment when you just leave that old strategy behind. Anyway, sorry I just get a bit excited when I start talking about all that.
Jimmy: No, that was good. So it just takes a bit of time to get to that state, to polarise the choices clearly in your head like that, where you can just say, ‘Well, the logical thing to do is over here.’
John: It is logical and Jeremy has a saying that ‘knowing follows a long time behind understanding’. The concepts in the book aren’t complicated, it just takes a little while to absorb it and get it in your bones. In order to take up the Transformed State you’ve got to, to some degree, just get your head around who you are and what it is to be resigned and do what Tony is talking about in understanding just how saturated your whole personality is with your own resigned strategy—well, how saturated we are with the human condition because once you see that, you can see the futility of your own personal strategy. Like day-to-day people don’t realise how wedded they are to a way of life they took up when they were 15. But everybody is frozen on to these resigned strategies they’ve got, it doesn’t matter who they are. You can walk up to anybody—the guy at the bar, the corner store, somebody you met at the golf club—everybody is just wedded-on to these resigned strategies. We just hang onto them for grim life and we’re owned by them. You’ve got to try and get some appreciation of that, of how owned you are by it and how it’s running your life and it is just literally a product of reading the information about the human condition and what happens to humans as a result of that. It makes sense if you get to this really dark corner at 15 or however old we each were, where you can’t reconcile the human condition and you’re faced with this horror you can’t bridge—all this corruption inside you and in the world that you can’t make sense of and is too painful to go near—that you end up in a massive depression trying to cope with it and get glandular fever which is a reflection of how much stress your whole system is going through at that time. Everyone goes through the same process and you come out of that with a resigned determination to never go back there again and to live on through some resigned strategy, to just try and get some superficial relief, through telling jokes or whatever your strategy is.
But it’s that strategy that ultimately stands between each person and freedom from it. As Tony said, it’s not like a religious conversion where at a certain point you become completely overwhelmed by the horror of your life and you have to give up the battle, even though the reconciling truth is yet to be found. For example, the criticism of Genghis Kahn wasn’t that he was hurt and upset, it was just that he didn’t become deeply religious instead of killing hundreds of thousands of people. He should have developed a born- again strategy and got his relief out of being kind to people and doing all the things that deeply, deeply religious people do.
So the Transformed State is different in that sense because it’s for everybody, this is a universal truth. The human condition is over, the whole reason that men became competitive and egocentric has been fulfilled, the ego has been championed. This information and what science has done and what Jeremy has synthesised from that explains why humans are good. So what we were trying to do through those resigned strategies, which was to maintain our self-worth, has been fundamentally done properly. So it follows that you can actually just give away your resigned strategy. But the key to being able to give it away is to be sufficiently honest about it and say, ‘This is me, I’m a mess, I’m resigned, I’ve been living for 35, 40 years or whatever it is with no understanding of the human condition.’ There is no shame in it but you’ve got to recognise who you are, that you are owned by a resigned strategy and going down a particular path that is now redundant. You can see that there is no point going down that path when there’s actually a path that’s going to save the human race and if you support that everything will be fixed!
So you make a philosophical choice about what you want to do at a certain point and as Tony said once you make it you can see that it’s such a simple choice that everybody can make and that it’s the right and the responsible thing to do. And sure, while this whole thing is in its infancy, it’s a little bit harder to maintain because there’s not hundreds of thousands of people doing it, there’s only a small number of people doing it. So yeah, you can lapse back into your old ways of behaving a bit if you’re not careful but the bottom-line truth is that it’s so exciting because it gets you out of all that horror and when you actually drill into and immerse yourself in it, the human condition is just horrendous, what you’re going through and what all people are living through and having to block out and battle away with in this resigned state. I mean we all put on a brave face and go to the pub and drink beers and try to make the most of life, that is what humans have done for time immemorial. But there is something that is just so much more exciting and when you make that decision in yourself to change strategy, you can see in that instant how it’s all going to work and how it’s going to sweep the world. You can see how everybody is going to do it and you can see how all the world’s problems are solved and it’s just incredibly exciting as Tony said. It’s empowering, it’s exciting, it’s fantastic and it doesn’t matter who you are! You can have the most horrific background from the most desperate corner on the earth and you can access the fun and the excitement of that and it gets you out of all your problems.
I can keep on talking ad nauseum but it’s your resigned strategy that causes most of the preoccupations and problems in your own life. Like you go to work and you’re frustrated at work because you’re not getting the recognition you want and all this sort of stuff, or you’re frustrated with your partner, or you’re frustrated with life or the federal government or whatever it is you’re frustrated about. Mainly what’s frustrating you is you—is the fact that you’ve got this artificial means of trying to get some reinforcement that’s not working very well because it’s fundamentally bullshit and you’re trying to keep this little bullshit thing going and it’s a painful, ultimately futile struggle in the personal sense. I mean people enduring the human condition for hundreds of thousands of years is what got the human race to this point but for the individuals involved it having to go along with these resigned strategies was just a chore. It was a painful slog that ended up in unhappiness. So you can just transform your life by…
Tony: It’s a bit like the resistance we have to reading the information in some senses. Like when I go to bed at night and I want to pick up some trashy novel instead of picking up FREEDOM or something. But the moment that I do pick up FREEDOM, I only have to read a couple of lines and I start getting blown away by what’s there. So there’s a resistance but if I start going through FREEDOM and I read each paragraph and I can go, I get that logic, tick, I get that logic, tick. It’s kind of a similar thing going on in yourself when considering the Transformed State. There is a natural resistance to doing that sum, to bringing up this side of yourself that can see through that resistance and can see how logical and liberating the Transformed State is. I think you might have mentioned in one of your emails some of the excuses/arguments your resigned mind comes up with as to why you’re not ready to move to the Transformed State, for example you haven’t ‘signed off’ on knowing the information is true, [although it sunk in very deeply the first time you read it and has never failed you since in applying it in your life]. You can see that that’s an excuse that every brain is going to use because it says, ‘I don’t want to think about this’. So to some degree you have to say, look, I’ve got to think about this despite my natural resistance against it where I just want to poke along and want someone to help me. So in my mind anyway, that is that sort of natural resistance where it’s hard to think about the human condition, especially in ourselves because we are just so programmed not to. So it’s not so much that it takes huge amounts of time. I mean to be honest, it just happened for me very quickly. I wasn’t living in Sydney when I took up the Transformed State or anything like that. I thought about it one day and WHAMMO! But I think that is an element, where there is a resistance in us to think about it.
Part 3 The Mexican Standoff
John: Yeah, that’s broadly right. In this process of digesting the information you start out in the situation where you’re fascinated by it and that goes on for a little while where you’re wanting to read more and more. Like how you described yourself reading the books, where you rush off and read another one and that’s the same process that so many of us went through.
Jimmy: I got on Amazon and I bought about five of Laurens van der Post’s books and a couple of R.D. Laing’s, probably about eight or ten other books referenced in A Species In Denial. [See & on van der Post and Laing, respectively.]
John: Yeah, it’s a fantastic thing to be able to understand and be able to read all the great philosophy and theology, biology, whatever you want to read and just know more than most of them.
Jimmy: Yeah, than the author, I know, it’s incredible.
John: Yeah, it’s just mind-bendingly good fun and that goes on for a few years. But what happens if you really immerse yourself in it is that you do end up in a ‘Mexican Standoff’ situation because what the information makes clear is that you’ve got this resigned strategy that’s now redundant. But you’re so wedded to it, you want to keep pushing that resigned strategy. You’re locked onto it but the information says, ‘Mate, that’s a now redundant strategy—the worth of humans has now been established, your old resigned way of doing it is now completely, thank Goodness, redundant. You don’t have to build this huge empire, make all this money, build a massive great farm, cut down all these trees, whatever it is you wanted to do. You can actually just give it all up.’
So for a long time people like me were stuck in the ‘Mexican Standoff’, knowing the information was true but still wanting to be ‘king of the world’, if you want to use that simple term for the resigned strategy. You know, just still living the life of an ego maniac. Sure, in one sense I was fully supportive of the WTM and loved everything about it and I was helping defend it from all these attacks we were suffering. But at another level, I’m living a life that is completely inconsistent with that. You know if I think, this information is so true and so fantastic and it makes my strategy redundant, why don’t in my own life, within myself, why don’t I give it away? Why don’t I just stop that resigned type of behaviour?
So you do end up in a ‘Mexican Standoff’ situation and what happens at that point is you try and delude yourself that you’re not resigned or that you’re somehow special or that you’ve got some kind of carve out. You live in this sort of bubble. It’s just a delusion but humans are fantastically good at delusions because they have had to live with so much unreconciled pain that they just delude themselves that none of it happened and everybody does that in different ways. If you can’t confront something you just block it out, deny it, delude yourself that it’s not going on. So you just live on your own little planet and it’s all bullshit but that’s sort of what you do. It is a very real state the ‘Mexican Standoff’ but the resolution to that is to try and get to grips with it. [See for explanation of the ‘Mexican Standoff and other stages of procrastination.]
Part 4 Can you cure your ‘upset’ with therapy?
John: [The philosopher Carl Jung] once talked about a concept called ‘Individuation’. If you lived long enough and had enough time in your life you could actually sit down and go through your whole life and work through all the imperfections in your life, right back to the day you were zero, and probably back into the womb because some of the psychological trauma in life happens in the womb. So if you went through all that and did a colossal amount of therapy and you had an endless lifetime with nothing else to do, then in theory, you could try and individuate yourself and try and get rid of all the pain. That’s the intellectual version of it, of what some people have talked about and this is before this understanding.
But, for most people, that is such an indulgence to try and go back and look at all that stuff. Yeah, so in my video I’m not remotely interested in doing some sort of micro reconciliation of all the crap that’s gone on in my life. I just want to get on with my life. I just want something meaningful to do. I just want to try and fix the world. For me to go back and pour over decades of experiences and drill down into each one of them and say, ‘Well, why was I so selfish and preoccupied then and why didn’t I…’, you know, it would just be an endless task. So in that intellectual sense it’s frankly it would be a complete waste of time
Part 5 If this saves the world, why isn’t everyone doing it?
John: The suffering on Earth is just colossal. If you sit down and immerse yourself in how serious the plight of the world is and how bad it’s going to be for the human race if this information doesn’t get out into the world, how bad it’s going to be for the human race and what an absolutely tragic end it will be for this two million years of effort, the only sensible response and is to pull your finger out and get on with supporting it really. It’s not a criticism of your situation at all but that is the ultimate point you get to when you look at this information and discover it can save the world and everybody has been sitting around for this long waiting for it. The fact that there is as much procrastination in the world as there is to this information, is a terrible indictment or exposure of how selfish people are, that they don’t respond properly and say, ‘Thank God’ and start supporting it. Instead most people think, ‘Well, that’s confronting of me, I’m going to attack it’ and you say, ‘Mate, what are you doing? This is the Holy Grail of human existence, why don’t we get behind it? This is mad!’ But we’re all like that. We’ve all got those aspects inside us that can read one of Jeremy’s books and think, ‘Well, that’s a bit confronting for me, I don’t want to do it.’
Part 6 It’s a miracle!
John: If you look at yourself really honestly, you can’t, and the good thing is your own alienation protects you from looking at yourself too deeply, and thank God it does, because it’s just too painful. Humans are so brutalised, we’re two million years insecure and hurt and what you sort of appreciate after a little while, is that it’s not about trying to go into the deepest darkest corner of your little toe and try to wrinkle out every last insecurity—far from it—because there is too much pain in all humans. It’s a joke you know. There is too much water under the bridge. At the end of the day you can tinker with things a little bit but fundamentally the only way you can really get on with your life is to get rid of your old strategy and take up a new one. That is what it sort of comes down to because we’re all so incredibly frail and insecure. We live in this tiny little world, like in his writing Jeremy describes humans as cardboard cut-outs of who they could be. That’s pretty much all resigned humans. You’re a cardboard cut-out of a real person. I mean it is a very, very, very confronting book. This information is very confronting and that is why at the end of the day my life is about supporting the information, rather than confronting it. I mean, if you lost FREEDOM and someone asked you to try and re-write a couple of pages of it, do you honestly reckon you could write even a paragraph and get it right? It comes from another universe. Jeremy writes from another honest universe that we are so far estranged from now, that none of us really know about. So I just get down on my knees and thank God that there is someone still fresh enough to do it, that we’ve got one person who can look honestly at the human condition. We only need one and we’ve got one and so it’s a miracle! I’m not a religious person in that sense but it’s a Goddamn miracle that somebody out of the ruck of this mess that’s planet earth has been able to say the pure, 100% God’s own truth and put it in a bloody book and explain it! And all we’ve got to do is support it to stop all the suffering on earth. So we’re so lucky you know and that book is just so good. It’s hard to be anything other than just ecstatic that we’ve got it because it saves us from our own madness and it saves the planet from destruction. It’s just great.