normal
forum

Home Forums Feedback Acceptance is key

This topic contains 7 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  RJ 2 months, 3 weeks ago.

  • Author
    Posts

  • Kevincan
    Participant

    I have read the “Transform your life and save the world” precis of the Freedom book. I got that our ancestors were co-operative, nurturing and infant-centric so selfless. Certainly see this clearly conflicts with the current “dog eat dog” materialistic world we live in which I accept has come from conflict between our natural intuitive self and the newer ability of conscious thought.

    It clearly needs to be read a few times at least to get a better understanding but I have the basics. (BTW I found the writing style a bit patronising – lots of underlining and bold face. Also found the style to be academic which a casual interested observer may be put off from finishing the book – I expect many people would struggle reading through the “Freedom” book, however worthy the goal. It needs to be much more readable by the man in the street).

    What I am struggling with is the apparent total rejection of the spiritual level of existence. Although quite a few valid points are drawn from the Holy Bible in the book, God is soundly rejected. I am a christian, but firmly believe we are spiritual beings having a human experience. I am not offended if you consider my stance delusional, as I would say the same about anyone who does not think God is. I accept they are your views.

    Of course religion as defined by man has been used by the authorities to control the people and in many ways enslave them. But we live in a connected world now and a strong light is being shone on the darkness and by sound reason and evidence we can destroy the darkness. We must focus on what brings us together, common ground.

    So I would be very interested to know whether people of any spiritual leaning, be they christian, muslim, jew, new age or any other, would be accepted as members of the World Transformation Movement, or does the WTM deny spirituality?

    I hope WTM does accept us (me) as we (I) can see much common ground, as evidenced in the book. I am also interested in the practical application of the destruction of the human condition – for example I can see a lot of synergy with the onecommunitygroup.org project. I look forward to WTM and other comments from interested people.

    My very best thoughts are with you,
    Kevin


  • Matt
    Participant

    This is a really interesting issue. My initial thought is that Jeremy seems to be the most spiritual of people. The depth of sensitivity that his writing demonstrates is just incredible. And his concern for humanity as well. And he is always writing about his love of ‘soul’, which he defines as our shared, all-loving, instincts, the voice of which is our conscience. And in addition to that, his admiration (to put it lightly), for Christ and Moses is plain to see in all his writing — there is so much in Freedom about Christ and how extraordinary he was. Griffith basically says that he saved the world. And then there is Griffith’s analysis of ‘God’, which he equates to love, which he equates to the fundamental drive in the universe that physicists have called Negative Entropy. All of which to me means he is a very spiritual person. But, if I understand you rightly Kevin, and I say this with the utmost respect, for you spirituality equates to following an organised religion, and I guess, believing in a transcendent, omnipotent God??
    I suppose the other thing to consider, is that Griffith says that finding the explanation of the human condition fulfils religions – see par 1217 of Freedom. I can personally follow the logic of that, but I suspect that will be something that people who hold to the literal word of religious texts may find difficult to accept?? Interested in your thoughts Kevin…


  • Kevincan
    Participant

    Thanks Matt for your really encouraging thoughts from a person clearly with more understanding and knowledge than myself regarding “Freedom” and Jeremy’s writings. I can certainly see from a logical standpoint Griffith’s analysis of God.

    I am happy to say something was lost in translation as spirituality for me does not equate to following organised religion – the evidence against this is overwhelming. I am a Christian because I know to follow Jesus example is the best way of living my life (of course I fail many times a day). I am a baptist because their freedom suits me better than “high” church.

    Transcendent, omnipotent God? I need to study those words a bit more carefully than my current vague understanding allows to be able to comment on that.

    The Holy Bible has always been open to being lost in translation so personally the literal word of religious texts itself needs to be considered from more than one source. I expect the majority of “religious” people would find P1217 difficult to accept. Myself I have a personal relationship with God and Jesus so somebody else saying either does not exist is their issue not mine.

    I really appreciate your educated illumination of this topic, thank you.


  • Sam
    Participant

    I just think that when you’re a child expecting a world that’s loving and cooperative, but instead you’re faced with a world so corrupted, selfish, burn’t out, hollow and alienated…and you start becoming aware of others suffering faminine, violence, abuse and dysfunction, you simply would have to put your faith and hope in an imaginative god, to cope, while you’re unable to otherwise understand why humans are the way they are and whether they were still somehow good for being that way.
    You would need someone you can pray and talk to in order to protect you and get you through each day…that also helps account for the sense of integrative meaning in all things, which our souls eminate within us.

    For me, Jeremy Griffith’s explanation allows for understanding why this destructiveness occured, providing the means to love the dark side of ourselves, which free us from insecurity about our sense of self-worth, rendering the need for faith in an imaginative higher power to look after our value as a species, obsolete.

    I loved Chapter 4 of Freedom and the FAQ on the webpage, provides all the scietific answers around the purpose or meaning of existence, which I intuitively sensed, but couldn’t otherwise admit until my contradictory nature was explained and defended first.

    I just think on people’s journey’s with this information, the sense of security, safety and comfort people felt in their previous belief system, prior to understanding, will reflect the sense of security and comfort they feel when they understand the human condition, however they will be without the insecurity and guilt emphasis brewing under the surface…for that reason alone its just an incredible degree more amazing living with understanding of the human condition.

    best wishes from me.


  • Chris
    Participant

    I grew up as a Greek orthodox, where my family (in particular grandparents) and even school (I went to a catholic school) heavily taught religious beliefs to acknowledge the ideals of life are to be cooperative, selfless and loving, but without the necessary defense and explanation to explain why us humans do NOT behave in this manner, it was a lot less confronting to admit these past sound and honest thinkers of our time (Moses, Jesus) to be a supernatural being, as it excused us for not being this way.

    However since coming upon Jeremy’s insights and extremely truthful and logical explanation of the human condition, I have no longer had to “hope” or “believe” as I have the outstanding gift of being able to now “understand” all the previously unanswerable questions on earth. Growing up I had no particular concern for Moses and Jesus because they didnt reflect who I was or any of my interests, and for the most part I wasnt sure if they even existed. Thanks to Jeremy’s incredible explanation however, I now understand how incredible they were for there time, as they were extremely honest and sound thinkers, viewing the world honestly and recognizing we had a loving and sensitive past, simply lacking the scientific explanations (at the time) to explain the defense and reasoning for this.

    I personally see Jeremy as the most spiritual person there is, as opposed to traditional spiritual methods (Yoga, meditation), which encourage “not to think” about the divisive and upset selves, Jeremy’s explanations allow you to fully connect with, understand, love and then heal the “dark” or “upset” sides of ourselves. I find myself truely loving the world again, truely wanting to live in the souls world, connecting with nature and animals in a way I never thought possible. Watching Integrative meaning (God) work before my very eyes and natures incredible orderly and soothing arrangement for the first time with real eyes rather than the eyes I had which could not look the the souls/natural world for longer than a few minutes without needing an escape.

    I think Jeremy’s logic and insights share some incredible light on religion in an absolutely positive and loving manner and explains how honest and necessary it has been, and believe you’ll have a great time reading Jeremy’s “Freedom” and digesting takes on religion you perhaps havent considered before.

    All the best :)


  • marto
    Participant

    the interesting thing about spirituality and/or the religious aspects of human life is that they represent stark evidence of the existence of a larger “force” at work in the world. As Jeremy explains in Freedom Essay 23 (https://www.humancondition.com/freedom-essays/the-integrative-meaning-of-existence/ ) there is a greater direction or purpose to life that is much greater than our own individual lives. In fact the scale of this “force” goes well beyond the human species! Jeremy has called this “force” or “process” integrative meaning – based on the fact that the whole point of all life is to integrate/cooperate – apologies if this is hard to follow I strongly recommend you read Freedom Essay 23 for a thorough run-through of this concept!!

    But in terms of Kevincan’s question from earlier, there’s a good quote from Freedom Essay 23 that’s worth including here:

    ‘Of course, as the Nobel Prize-winning physicist Charles H. Townes truthfully admitted, ‘they [religion and science] both represent man’s efforts to understand his universe and must ultimately be dealing with the same substance. As we understand more in each realm, the two must grow together…​converge they must’ (‘The Convergence of Science and Religion’, Zygon, Vol.1 No.3, 1966).’


  • Roger
    Participant

    Hi,
    I think Marto’s answer is really helpful, a great piece of advice to read Essay 23.
    The freedom that comes with letting go of your upset from the human condition and accepting the truth of Integrative Meaning, and truely seeing yourself as part of it in the Transformed State, I think is almost a redefining of “spiritual”.
    The Essay 23 really is a must read.


  • RJ
    Participant

    This spirituality question was one for me early on with these ideas too, but this section of one of Jeremy’s earlier books A Species IN Denial beautifully answered it for me. It/s titled ‘where is the spirituality in negative entropy’ so very relevant to the discussion! Have found the section and put the link below, this is a favourite line talking about the info ‘It allows humans to live with a full awareness of, and ability to savour, the beauty of integration’. Also someone made a reference to Jeremy’s work being hard to read which is true because we find the whole subject that it deals with absolutely terrifying. I love the FAQ section and thought I’d add a couple of links that are clarifying on this too. Honestly there is nothing not explained on this website! Great thread btw, enjoyed it, we all so crave deep meaning and togetherness and spiritual aliveness if that is a word! and this info brings it to us in bucketloads!
    https://www.humancondition.com/asid-the-demystification-of-god/#toc-88
    https://www.humancondition.com/wtm-faq-why-cant-I-understand-this/
    https://www.humancondition.com/wtm-faq-shouldnt-the-website-be-toned-down/